Michigan Hard Cider Message Board

[Crossczek]

Anybody have any experiance in kegging thier cider? I have the CO2 bottles and tap from an old beer system. I figure I need a corny (sp?) keg, fridge and someone with experiance. Any help would be appreciated.

I also have a couple of SS kegs and a quater barrel in the garage. Maybe I could use them? I have no idea how to get them clean though. Does anybody have any suggestions on other uses for them?

[hendrick]

I keg most of my cider. When it is stable and clear I rack it into the corny keg with some sorbate and a little sugar for sweetness (if you like it sweeter). Then I let it sit in the fridge over night and force carbonate the next day. I have also done this in half barrels with home brew and cider. You need to remove the spring style ring in the neck of the keg and then pull out the whole stem. Then fill with hot water and a cleaner (straight-A, or other beer cleaner safe for stainless) and soak for an hour or more. Then scrub with a carboy brush and rinse and rinse and rinse. After you rack your cider in and reseal give it some co2, let it sit, release the pressure, then do it another time or to. This fills the head space with co2 so you don't oxygenate.

Enjoy!

[Crossczek]

Thanks. I've been doing a lot of reading and kegging seems to be the way to go. I may or may not try the old beer kegs I have. I'll definitly be getting a few corney kegs though.

[Crossczek]

I finally got around to getting the corney kegs. Now I have a whole slew of other questions:

I'd like to back sweeten with fresh juice and then keg. Is there any other way to preserve (5 gal keg quantities) besides adding potassium sorbate? I'd like to avoid adding pot. sorbate if possible.

Should the fresh juice used for back sweetening be treated in anyway or can most of my questions be solved by just using a (dare I say it) ...store bought preserved juice?

Does adding potassium sorbate prevent malo lactic fermentation from happening? Will kegged cider go thought m/l fermentation under CO2 pressure or should I wait until after m/l fermentation to keg?

Will the back sweetend juice drop clear or should I add more pectic enzyme? And, has anyone had problems with sediment clogging up the keg system?

I am under the assumption that kegged cider will last just as long as bottled cider, is that correct?

Sorry for the lenghy post, and as usual, any information will be helpfull.

Cheers!

[BeerGeek]

I think the only practical way to preserve a 5 gallon corny is with sorbate. You could use a clear tube and UV light while transferring to the keg, but if you don't have a UV sterilization unit sitting around, you probably don't want to go buy one. Running the racking tube through a hot water bath on the way to the keg would be more practical. You could run the cider through a copper immersion chiller immersed in a hot water bath. Temp control would be a bit tricky.

They key to adding sorbate is adjusting the sorbate to the acid level in the finished cider.

If you're going to use sorbate, you don't need to treat your backsweetening juice.

Adding sorbate will stop all activity, including M-L fermentation.

CO2 levels shouldn't effect M-L fermentation. I've heard CO2 toxicity can stop or slow yeast activity, but I've not heard it can stop bacterial activity.

The added juice should drop bright, throwing some sediment, of course.

I've not had sediment clog a keg. I've had some pretty chunky stuff in the keg, and once I had the liquid out valve get stuck open. but a little finagling cleared it.

Keep the CO2 pressure positive in the keg, and it should keep as long as bottled cider.

Makes sense?

[Crossczek]

[hendrick]

I personally don't recommend using juice to back sweeten. The new juice gives your cider a fresh dose of malic acid. I have had malo-lactic fermentation even with adding sorbate plus being carbonated and it leaves a nasty smell to the cider. You might control the m/l ferment with extra sulfites. Adding just sugar plus some patient time brings back a lot of the apple.

[Crossczek]

[hendrick]

I usually put it under 30psi and put it on my sons skate board then roll it back and forth for a minute staying under pressure. Then I let it rest for 15-30 min and repeat 2 more times. Let it sit over night or longer in the fridge to let the cider calm down. It might just be me but it never tastes quite right if I drink some right after carbonating.

[Crossczek]

Kegged 15 gallons last night (3 corney's) of standard cider. The cider had cleared nicely, had an apple-y start and a tart finish that went on and on. Anyway, I hooked the kegs up to 20 psi and rolled the kegs back and forth across the rug. I could actually hear more CO2 going in as I kept agitating the keg, and continued to agitate until I didn't hear any more gas escaping. I figure only 20 lbs 'cause I'm waiting for the m/l fermentation and figure that’ll add a few. Plus, I may want to back sweeten or perform some other experiment and add a little somp'in-somp'in and will end up purging and opening the kegs to do so. Only hitch: I forgot to purge the head space on two of the kegs prior to puttin' the spurs to it. I figure by now, whatever oxygen (or undesirable anything for that matter) was in the headspace is now fully incorporated into the liquid and there's no getting it out.

[Crossczek]

After work yesterday I ran home and into the house like kid coming home from school dropping all my possessions to the floor along the way...coat, keys, coffee mug. I had to pull the first glass of newly keged cider and see how I did. Well, the cider was still good but the tap was less than ideal. The cider shot out at what I assume to be the same 20 psi that I carbonated it with the night before. Am I missing something here? I let the cider sit overnight after force carbonating it and I didn’t even hook the CO2 up to it the next day when I pulled a small glass off to test it. How do I keep the cider from shooting out at 20 psi? It seems to me that if I purge the head space in the keg, the CO2 in the liquid will want to equilibrate to match the headspace and ultimately lower the level of carbonation in the cider.

I’m heading to the brew store that’s on my way home (Adventures in Home Brewing, I highly recommend) to see what they say about it.

If anybody here has any suggestions or wants to divulge what works for them, I’d love to hear it. I’m sure a lot of other readers would benefit from it too.

[Crossczek]

I stopped by the brew store and found out an interesting tidbit of information: it only takes 5 lbs of head pressure to keep the CO2 dissolved in the cider.
So, to state the obvious, once you have the proper amount of carbonation into your beverage, purge the headspace down to about 5psi, then maintain with your CO2 tank regulated to 5 psi. I've done a ton of research on this (as engineers do) and never came across that integral piece of information. Either I've been looking in all the wrong places or I skipped that section.

Either way, the secret's out now.

Na Zdrowie!

[BeerGeek]

Hmmm.....

I don't think you missed that tidbit in your research. I think you've been given the wrong info.

If you're cider is at 20psi, and your headspace is at 5 psi, they will equilibrate. Gasses expand to fill the volume they have access to.

What he might have meant was a temporary effect. You can dispense ~20psi cider using 5 psi pressure. For a while. But the CO2 will come out of the cider and fill the headspace until it equilibrates.

And, I think 20 psi (3 volumes of CO2 at 40F) is a bit high. You typically want about 2 volumes (~10 psi at 40F).

But, dispsense/drink it the way you like it.

What I do is carbonate at a high psi (~25) for a few days, then serve, pushing at about 5psi. When done serving, I'll top off the keg at 10psi. If the next time it comes out too fast, I'll vent some CO2 until it serves properly.

If you run a completely Balanced System, you can keep 10psi on the keg at all times, and serve through a long tap line (about 5 feet of 3/16" tubing). The pressure drop through the line allows the cider to come out without foaming or losing CO2 volumes.

Anybody else getting thirsty?

[cidermaster]

I have added fresh juice at kegging but I pasturized it first. Also I added half the amount of sulfite that was required when it went into the keg